Navigating Nuances: A Holistic View of Digital Advertising in Healthcare and Biopharma

🎙️ Welcome to another episode of OUTCOMES, your go-to podcast for healthcare and biopharma marketing insights.

In this episode, we're thrilled to have Kristin Carlson and Michelle Deleppo, leading digital media strategists at emagineHealth. Together, they unpack the evolving landscape of digital marketing strategies tailored specifically for the healthcare and biopharma industries.

🔍 What's Inside:

1️⃣ Targeting Features in LinkedIn: Discover how new AI and other functionalities are revolutionizing targeting capabilities for marketers.

2️⃣ Clinical Trial Recruitment: Learn about the unique challenges in the U.S. market and how to navigate through them.

3️⃣ Regulatory Maze: Gain invaluable insights into the FDA and FTC guidelines that every healthcare marketer should be aware of.

4️⃣ Platform-Specific Strategies: Understand the role of various social media platforms in both B2B and B2C healthcare marketing.

5️⃣ The Rise of Video Ads: Get a pulse on why video ads are showing promising engagement rates and how to leverage them effectively.

🎯 Who Should Listen?

Whether you're a seasoned healthcare marketer or new to the biopharma world, this episode offers a comprehensive guide to current trends and best practices. Unlock the potential of digital platforms while staying compliant with regulatory guidelines.

Don't miss out on this enlightening conversation—tune in now!

Website:
https://www.emaginehealth.com/

LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/emag...

Insights:
https://www.emaginehealth.com/blog/

Thank you for listening to OUTCOMES. Please find more healthcare and biopharma marketing thought leadership in the Insights section of our website and follow us on LinkedIn!

Transcript

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Welcome to outcomes, the healthcare and biopharma marketing podcast, where marketing leaders discuss the most effective strategies for the health sectors coming from a digital first AI powered perspective. Hello everyone. And welcome to our next episode of our outcomes podcast today. I have with me. Kristen Carlson and Michelle D'Aleppo, and they are both paid digital media strategists at Imagine and Imagine Health. They both work with a wide range of clients in the healthcare and biopharma sectors. Maybe even a few others, but, um, but that being your primary focus. And so what we've been chatting here about a bit, and what we're gonna talk about today are just a few of the, a few of the nuances, obstacles, considerations, um, that both Kristen and Michelle experience observe have to have to deal with and encounter on a daily basis. Um. In terms of, in terms of doing our clients online advertising. And that means it means everything from paid search to paid social to programmatic, uh, and, and whatever else, uh, Christian and Michelle that you want to add to that. So, you know, let's start really like broadly here and whoever wants to, whoever wants to jump in, just talk a little bit from a high level about, you know, some of those obstacles and challenges that you have to get around on a regular basis. First of all, when you start to get into like paid media in general in the healthcare space, whether that's pharma or biotech or a hospital, you're going, especially like on the Google ad side of things, you're going to run into policy violations. Now, policy violations don't necessarily mean that you're. Actually in violation, it could be a flag. And that's the thing that we like, can kind of continuously run into and really kind of warn people that, you know, when they start or if they started previously, and then they come to us and they're like, Hey, like, you know, we keep running into all this policy violations. Like, what can we be doing about it? And a lot of times, like, that initial conversation is yes. Welcome. This is your new normal. You will always have policy violations in this space. Um, and it's kind of for a couple of reasons. Google's protecting themselves. You know, by being conscious and saying, like, staying on top of things, they're warning you, they're protecting themselves. Um, and the other thing is, too, like, it's not necessarily always limiting you performance wise. It's, A little bit more of like, hey, just so you're aware, if you start to get into, like, expanding locations, for example, if you start to make any changes, this is something that could potentially limit you. Um, so a lot of it's just like, awareness and a lot of it kind of comes out of like, those conversations, those initial chats with us where we're like, hey, don't panic. I know it looks really scary, but this is what it actually means. I feel like, too, like, there's kind of this. Undisclosed like layers of urgency with them. So, as Michelle was saying, you know, some of them are just awareness, like, Hey, this could be a potential issue, but then there's ones where, you know, there's some minimal changes that need to be made, or like, things that you cannot talk about at all. And then there's that layer where you have to take the next step of, you know, filling out an application to get approval to even run ads based on whatever that type of. If she was. There's not like this one rule book that the FDA or the FTC puts out that says, okay, um, pharmaceutical or healthcare marketers, here are all the exact things you are allowed to do and all the exact things that you're not allowed to do. And so it's a lot of interpretation and, and that interpretation then ends up having to be done by a. Variety of people. It's it's, it's the company's own regulatory affairs team that has to interpret that, make the rules. It's Google that then has to become their governing body. And then it's you who's actually managing the stuff. And I mean, and would you agree with that? You don't have. any hard rules when you go into this, maybe there might be a few, like you can't lie. There's that mixture too, of like you were saying, you know, there's things that, you know, that the company kind of itself wants to, you know, look at, and they might think it should be one way. And then we want to kind of say, okay, well, this is going to be the best way from an advertising standpoint. But then of course, keeping in mind what Google wants to, so there's definitely a lot. Big time. And the thing that's also tough about it is that it's a moving target. It changes every day. So six months from now, one policy gets updated. Oh, the things that you can like, quote unquote, get away with are completely different. Um, or things that, you know, were fine are all of a sudden not fine. You know, having certain texts in your ad or, you know, landing on a certain page and calling out a certain aspect that you offer, something like that. Could have been fine, and then all of a sudden, due to like, some little nuance, it's not the other thing we run into a lot too, is like, algorithmically occasionally, like, things will get flagged. But it may not actually be a violation. So, for example, like, um. Something like, uh, trust doctors or trust in doctors, something like that type of ad copy doctors trust is is a, um. Is a trademark term. So if it reads that quick, it'll grab that and say, like, Hey, you can't bid on something that's trademarked, even though we're not. So there's things like that, too, that, like, the algorithms are only so smart. So a lot of times you do have to go through the process of going through and flagging something to get a human eyes on it just to get. Oh, yeah, this is not. Actually a violation, even though it's being flagged as one, you know, when you go to the doctor's office and you stand on the scale and they have a little thing where they're constantly kind of doing this and getting the right way. That's what it's like. It's terrible. Yeah. You're just like so much anxiety, but that's kind of what it's like to be, to work in this space. It's a lot of like, let's see what we can try. And a lot of times, like sometimes you try it and it works and sometimes you try it and it doesn't either for, you know, a policy violation or just for like Advertising like the click through rate looks really bad. Um. A lot of it kind of feeds into this metric called quality score and the quality score is. Google gives every keyword a quality score based off of three different factors, um, ad copy relevance, um, the landing page experience and expected click through rate. Basically what our goal is, is to get that relationship as tight as possible. So someone searches a term, they get an ad that has that term right in it, and then they land on a page, they find the information they're looking for, and that term is all over the page. That's what is in an ideal world. Typically, when you're working with like legal departments, you can't always make that connection perfectly, especially when you get into things like cell and gene therapy, because right now, as it stands, you're not allowed to do advertising for cell and gene therapy. You are allowed to advertise for like educational purposes, but you're not allowed to say like we offer cell and gene therapy. That means so if someone types in cell and gene therapy, that's a term that you'd like to bid on. You can't have that in your ad copy. You can't have that on your landing page. What ultimately happens is that quality score is going to be low, which means you're going to have to pay a premium for it. Your cost per click is going to be higher. Um, so it becomes a lot of like, okay, well, how can we like. Get this as close as possible. So something like cell and gene therapy the word therapies in that keyword Okay Can we change the ad copy to something like advanced therapies or personalized therapies or some other kind of version to kind of get as? Close as possible and then we kind of put that in the ad copy we can put that in the landing page We can you know mess with the landing page to put like the form in a different place and see if we can get people To you know convert more effectively and maybe that's a signal that will help You know, serve it properly. So there's a lot of, again, it's a lot of like that scale and saying like, okay, how can we really like meet everybody's goal and find the thing that works the best. And it's one of those things where, like, you're never going to find the thing that, oh, it's perfect. And like, now we don't have to touch it anymore. You're always going to be moving that scale. It's always going to be changing. People's perceptions change, legal departments change, even your contacts change and their goals are different. That's specific. One, like, you know, cell and gene therapy. I mean, like Michelle was saying, you could not target it at all like before. And just recently, I think within maybe the last year, they've changed it. So it's always going to be changing. Things are always going to, you know. Come in and, you know, maybe for the positive where we can now start targeting it. But, um, that's a huge one that. But you can, so what you're saying is you can bid on that phrase. You just can't use the phrase. Correct. Interesting. It's a fun little loophole that we as the advertisers know about. And this is why, like being very specialized in a sector like this can be really helpful because we've seen examples of that. Working. So we know, okay. Like nuances, we can kind of like take what we learn from that type of thing that we've run into and apply it to others and kind of like, okay, now our knowledge base is higher around things like this. Uh, yeah. It's interesting because it really, and it's, it's got to change. Like you said, Kristen, because I mean, it really is where healthcare is going. You know, the whole trend of personalized. Medicine, precision therapies, and cell and gene. It's not like this new experiment that, that a few people are working on. It really does seem to be the future of health. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even, even like, you know, if you don't want to get into COVID, but like when COVID happened, you could not even touch that at all. Like, they really kind of refused to have any ads on around COVID, even if it was coming from someone that's a legitimate company that's Trying to like promote like, um, the vaccine or whatever, um, they want to promote, they could not touch it. And then I think again, within the last year, they've started allowing people to start utilizing it now. Who is the bigger challenge for you, Kristen, um, your clients, regulatory departments, or Google's restrictions and flags and so forth? It's a little bit of, and the reason why is because, you know, we kind of aren't always learning about Google and we understand it. So we know what to expect when it comes to Google. Whereas, you know, the regulatory departments, we don't always understand 100 percent why they want to do something the way they want to do. And, you know, we might think, okay, it's easy to kind of, you know, phrase something this way when regulatory is like, no, we can absolutely not say, Whatever that phrase was, so it's definitely a toss up, I think, between the 2. Yeah, I'd agree with that. Um, I think that on the regulatory side, it really kind of depends on who you're working with, because if you can work with them in a really open, communicative way. A lot of times, like, they will help you and kind of give you the context of, like, we can't say it because of this reason. Anything that kind of falls into this bucket, we're a little wary of. So you can get some additional context there, which can help navigate. I don't know that it makes it easier, but it makes it easier to understand. The Google policy side of things is tough because a lot of times again, like, you're working with both algorithms and a person. Um, so to kind of like, get everybody the algorithm and the person and the advertiser all kind of on the same page can be a little bit of heavy lifting sometimes. Got it. The regulatory to, you know, every company has a different kind of so, you know, some people have a very hefty or it has to go through not only internally, but then legal and so on. And some people just, you know, it's just an internal review clicking over with so that's the other part too. Yeah, definitely a challenge. I mean, you've got one department, the marketers who are there to promote the business, generate awareness and revenue and the others who only role is to protect the company and make sure that they're not doing anything that will not even be illegal, but even frowned upon. So it's a, it's a challenge. And that's why I always say that it's, it is important to work with, um, you know, agency, not just us, but an agency who's just. Very accustomed to navigating all of these various obstacles, because again, there is no, there is no one rule book that anybody can open up and flip to that page and know exactly how to do it. It comes with experience. Yeah, I'm sorry. I was going to say, I think, like, Kristen, I, too, like, we've both worked in this industry for a long time at this point, and I think both of us really kind of look at our jobs. Partially, it's very educational of, hey, like, this is so you guys understand, like, how all these algorithms and how all these pieces work together and that we're on the same team. And we want to make sure that this. program is set up for your success, not success in general of like what I deem is successful, but like, what does success look like to you and making this a custom program that like, makes sense with your policies and the people that are running them and everyone's goals. So everyone's on the same page. Like, I always like to say that it's a ship and you can point the ship in any direction it needs to go in. Um, and one of the big things with paid media in general is. Because it's paid, you can pivot the ship a lot faster. Um, so it's a huge benefit to, to doing things like this. Have, have either of you, without naming any names, if, if, if one exists, but in dealing with the regulatory obstacles, whether that be Google's guidelines or regulatory affairs, um, has it ever been? So stringent that you actually felt you couldn't be successful for a given client because it was just, it was, it was just shutting down any opportunity to do any real marketing. Not really from my end. I think there's always kind of a pocket you can find, you know, whether it's like the pocket that I see on my end, Hey, I see a big opportunity, like keyword wise, volume wise here. If they're like, that's not the direction we can go in. Okay. Then we can find something else. There's really always. Yeah. Somewhere to find success. And it's all kind of about, you know, casting the net in the right place. That's the right, you know, you don't want to cast that net super wide. You want to cast it narrow enough that you're capturing, you know, the people that you want to be talking to, um, and catching the right people. And something like cell and gene, I'm assuming Google doesn't care what type of company it is, right? Because there is a difference in a biotech or a pharma that's offering cell and gene therapies and a CRO or CDMO who actually has capabilities in working with those therapies, but Google doesn't care, right? Because, because for CRO They're not, they're not promising anything that's experimental or speculative in terms of medicine. That's just a competency of theirs, but they still have that same obstacle, correct? Yeah, that's a little bit too much nuance for something like the algorithm to catch at this point. It's very much like blanket, like I see cell and gene. It's a no. Yeah, unless you fall like Kristen was saying in like this education bucket, which again is new. Um, so fingers crossed. It's going to get less stringent in the future. Yeah. So, let's shift over to clinical trial recruitment. And, um, whoever wants to jump in there, talk a little bit about that whole sector and things that you've observed there. Yeah. Um, so for clinical trial recruitment, that's one of the ones where it can flag you, but it doesn't necessarily mean that there's an issue. Um, the United States is one of the only countries that, um, allows clinical trial recruitment. So because of that, we do get flagged. Um, but as an example, we had a hospital that was doing some international, um, recruitment just to kind of get people over, um, utilize them and they had mentioned clinical trial on the website, but never actually was like recruiting for it. It just was. It's quickly mentioned and, um, it got flagged completely turned off until we removed that from that page. So it's definitely, you know, tough out there if you're looking internationally, but the United States is one of the ones that is pretty safe there. And flagging, when you mentioned flag, it sounds like flagging can either mean we're just making you aware of this, but we're not shutting anything off. But it also can mean, no, we've, we've stopped that. Right. Yeah, and when in the account, it's a little confusing because it will a flag. Well, there's a lot of times I will say, like, flag limited, but it doesn't tell you. Well, what's limited how limited what does that mean? And especially with clinical trial recruitment, if you're talking about clinical trial recruitment, even if it is in the U. S. and as Kristen said, it's safe to do so in the U. S. It'll flag you anyways. So it looks like, oh my god, I'm being limited, but you're not. It's letting you know that if you were to expand your location to include places that you are not allowed to advertise in, it'll shut the whole thing down regardless of if it's also in the United States. Um, so that, that's a fun one. We run into a lot. And I also have to mention to like, a lot of clinical trial recruitment, it's definitely one of a lot of these policies. If it's mentioned on the website anywhere, not just the landing page, it can get flagged. So it's not necessarily just like, Hey, you land on this page. It's talking about clinical trial. No, if your website mentions it. You're going to get flagged. Like, if there's a link to a blog or something that's like, cell and gene therapy, and the page is not talking about it, you'll get flagged for that still. Wow. Interesting. It's no joke. Stuff out there. Let's talk about. Go ahead. Well, just to say, I mean, even, you know, all of these policies that are in place, like from an advertiser standpoint, it is like annoying to have to jump through the hoops and all of that. But at the end of the day, it's just really to protect, you know, the patients, the users, um, for making sure that they're getting the most legitimate information that's available to them. Yeah, absolutely. It is. It's in everybody's best interest, even if it's annoying, um, for us on the advertiser side, you know, it's to protect everyone. And a lot of times too, it's like, when we work with clients, like, let us do all of the back and forth. You know what I mean? Like, that's part of the part of our jobs. It's like, we'll take that off your plate. You don't need to worry about that. Um, so it's fun. It's a good one. Yeah. So let's talk about. Okay. You know, one of the appeals of, of digital marketing, I think more than back, I go back, I was a direct mail guy before starting imagine mid nineties and all that. And, and, you know, you tried to personalize your marketing as much as possible and you did mail merging and all of that, but digital is very data driven, highly targeted, highly measurable. Um, and so. There's this balancing act. I know that you play or we play as a, as an industry in terms of digital marketing of being highly personalized, being highly targeted, leveraging as much data as possible, but also, um, everybody's need to protect. The audience's privacy. That's especially true when it comes to patients. Um, so let's just talk about that whole issue as you can, as we can, like, talk about your ability to target, but, you know, and things that you can do, but also balancing that with. The need for privacy Facebook specifically has, um, I think the most kind of restrictions from a targeting standpoint, when it comes to health care, um, you can't they kind of gotten rid of, like, all the conditions that they used to allow you to target. It's very, very, like, broad targeting. You can't get specific there. Um, and then from like, an ad standpoint, when you're kind of talking about, What you're trying to promote. You can't talk directly to the patient. You kind of have to do a little workaround. Um, talking in 3rd person. Um, and as an example, you can't say, do you have this condition? Um, you have to say patients with this condition. Wow, that's Facebook specifically. Yeah, and I mean, like, we're kind of saying, like, it is a moving target. It changes all the time, right? So, because on Facebook, you used to be able to target all of these things, you know, things like, you know, interest in this type of group, you know, member of the society, those types of like, groups that you would join on Facebook used to be able to target all of those things that were like, health specific. You don't get any of that anymore. So a lot of, like, what tends to happen is for, like, in the health space, it tends to be a lot more kind of, like, brand awareness. It tends to be, like, location specific. Um, it's a lot broader. Um, lots of, like, retargeting if you're able to do that, depending on, you know, your policies and if you're, you know, allowed to use that data. Um, but it's changed a lot and the messaging. Because of that has also changed a lot. Um, so it's very much like a different part of the funnel, uh, where it used to be like much more lower funnel of like, we know this about you. We know that you're in this specific part of your patient journey. We're ready to have this stage of conversation with you. It tends to be much higher level funnel of like, just to make you aware, this is an option for you if you know someone, if you, whatever it has, this thing affected your life, those types of things. It's just a very different kind of segment. Um, and part of the discussion as far as like that conversation goes. Got it. And seeing, this is, this is not a regulatory question. This is, um, but, you know, see, we've talked here about Google. We've talked about Facebook now. What is the mix of channels that you're seeing with our clients? Again, you can speak either from a health care or a biopharma perspective. Um, it's obviously those two, uh, you know, are using LinkedIn at all for, you know, is there a B2B? Thank you. Application in those sectors, uh, speak a little bit about, you know, you can both, um, start with you, Michelle, but, you know, just kind of the mix of channels that, that you're seeing and for which applications with your clients. Um, so as far as overall, Google ads tends to be something that we recommend for pretty much all clients. And a big reason for that is intent, you know, asking you shall receive. If you're typing something into Google, you have intent. I'm looking for this specific thing. I'm ready to have this stage of the conversation. We know that we can then have that appropriate conversation with you. So that tends to work for pretty much everyone. When you're getting into like patient specific. Conversations of like, this client works specifically with patients, it tends to be a lot more like brand awareness on the Facebook side of things and social in general. Um, when you get into something like a CRO or someone that is a little bit more B2B or like, you know, specifically we're talking to this type of professional, you can get some very, very effective targeting on LinkedIn. And LinkedIn is a space that The targeting is so effective that, like, if you can kind of, like, make a case for it, as far as, like, a B2B segment, it works incredibly well, because you are able to kind of, like, have that conversation all different stages of someone's journey, rather than being forced to have that very high level conversation with a patient on the Facebook side of things. It still works. We definitely still find success. Everywhere. Um, and again, it's a lot of like, it's a moving target. It's try one thing, run a test. Did this work? Yes or no? What does success look like? Let's define it. Let's try again. Let's do this. Let's do different creative, et cetera. So it's never going to be a situation where, okay, like we've set it up. It's in its ideal state and we never have to think about it again. It's something that you will be messing with for as long as you have the program. If you're And really invested in doing it. Yeah. And Kristen, I'm going to tweak the question slightly for you, but one of the things I wanted to mention, we talked about LinkedIn's targeting ability just yesterday. Um, they announced, uh, LinkedIn launching three new might be four AI, uh, powered features that are going to be for recruiting, obviously, uh, one for education, but then one for each. Marketing, which applies to you and then one for sales. So, um, I think the targeting is going to be, I don't know that it's necessarily better targeting, but a little easier for you to work with the targeting capabilities in terms of like how we're all using chat GPT, being able to speak. To LinkedIn and say, I want to target these people in this way and have it kind of, um, work with you at a, just in an easier way to create those campaigns and that targeting. So that's going to be interesting. I don't know if it all went live yet, but they just start was all announced, uh, just yesterday. So AI is going to. Obviously changed the game in a lot of things, but, um, with advertising too. But Kristen, similar question to you. Like, what are you seeing for, you know, the mix of platforms, but also, um, mix of, of media, you know, talk a little bit about platforms, but also textual ads, display video, like anything that you can see there within this market. Yeah, so on the pharma side of things, um, they're kind of a little fun group because they want to get in front of, you know, as well as patients. So we do have the B2B and the B2C. Um, so LinkedIn is definitely a big 1, um, as well as, you know, the Google search Microsoft apps and all of that. Um, but from, like, an ad standpoint, we do get to, you know, do some video ads, um, kind of across the board with, you know, YouTube ads, then you get to the Facebook, the LinkedIn and all of that. Those tend to work really well. Um, and then definitely, like, just your standard image ads also kind of dabble in there as well. From a healthcare first, but not healthcare, like a hospital perspective, that's when you're really going to be like the need to see. Um, so we've actually had some clients doing tick tock. Um, and, you know, it's kind of a fun 1 to kind of dabble into the limitations there with audiences are very good. So, you know, it's very limited. Very general brand awareness, but you're getting in front of people that find interest and we're finding a lot of people clicking through and driving to those sites. Um, On another kind of big 1, um, for, you know, the hospitals is, um. You know, The YouTube, I know I kind of mentioned that before, but YouTube has been huge on, you know, getting in front of people that can are maybe previously searching on Google search. And then now they're on YouTube, watching whatever videos that are related to that type of content and kind of get in front of them. And we've seen a lot of success getting conversions just from YouTube alone. That's been good. Yeah. YouTube is a fun one because it kind of combines like two types of targeting because you have like the intent with search, but then you also have audience data of like, okay, this person likes to watch, you know, videos about this topic or they follow XYZ person. So we know that, you know, even if they haven't searched this necessarily, we know we're talking to the right person and you kind of get both of those aspects with YouTube. So you can really like have a very like exact conversation with a person depending on where they're at in their journey. With YouTube, which is, it's pretty interesting. Um, yeah, it's, it's a good one. I think there too. Yeah, I feel like YouTube is starting to become like a mix between like a display and search. It's not so much as like high intent as search. But it's definitely not as great awareness as like a display campaign would be. It's kind of right in the middle. So I think that's why we do see such a good success from, you know, getting people to see the ads, come to the website and then fill out a form. Typically, you wouldn't see that as likely with an awareness campaign, but we're definitely seeing that kind of influx, which is great. Great. Yeah, videos in a, in a very interesting, exciting stage right now, because I mean, we've all known it's not a new thing that video engagement has been a steadily growing thing for forever for the past 20 years. Um, just continually increases, but. I think TikTok really revolutionized this, the short video, right? And, and the, the vertical format, the short aspect of it. And so now even over on YouTube, and I'm not talking, um, from a paid standpoint, I'm speaking in general, whether it's organic or paid, uh, You know, everybody's gone to shorts because short video is, is such a popular form of content, you know, obviously Instagram reels and Facebook and, um, LinkedIn did theirs for a little while. I think they abandoned it. And, um, but YouTube, YouTube shorts. I mean, I'm seeing that on the organic side that we've got our longer form videos, like we're doing here today. This will be a little bit of a lengthy conversation, but chopping it up. Into 60 seconds or less. And those little chunks, uh, getting really high engagement on YouTube. So it's, it's interesting. And, and, you know, I guess we'll see, like for TikTok, we know the demographic has changed. It's evolved a lot. It's not just teenagers. It's not just people doing funny dances. Like I think we all perceived TikTok to be three years ago, and it probably was largely that, um, we know it's evolved. But will it really ever become a, you know, a significant tool for B2B companies, scientific companies, um, you know, I guess we'll see. I mean, what are your, just, you don't have a crystal ball either, but what are, you know, both of your thoughts on TikTok and short video and what you would envision again within our market where you see it going? I mean, I don't like for really paid in general, social in general, it's changing all the time. It changes so fast. Um, I mean, the market is completely different. Like you just mentioned from even from three years ago, like tick tock wasn't even like a thing. Um, if it's not tick tock, it'll be some new thing, right? Like it'll always kind of be changing and evolving. And, and as. You know, the new thing comes out, the younger demographic goes to the new thing, and then the older people kind of stay on the, the other platforms and it kind of like ages out with time. So like, you know, the Facebook audience tends to be much, much older now versus like the Instagram, which is kind of like that millennial age group. And then TikTok tends to be a little bit younger, but then also into the millennials, also a little bit older as well. So a lot of it kind of like skews and it all kind of like pushes down the funnel. Um, I think that trend will continue, you know, whether it's short video or some new thing, like, you know. They're going to put microchips in her head and that'll be that. So it'll always be some new thing. Yeah, I think it's such a, like you're saying, like a generational kind of aspect of, you know, where people, um, you know, if you're looking for, you know, the. So um, if you want like a boomers and like Gen X is maybe on a Facebook could probably be the best way to go, but definitely you want Gen Z Millennials to talk. So it's definitely dependent. This has been so insightful for me. I think it will be for our audience. So Kristen, Michelle, um, thanks so much. I hope to have you back on here many more times in the future. That was good. Thanks.